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	<title>Comments for Silverbased</title>
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	<link>http://silverbased.org</link>
	<description>Projects and ponderings for film photographers</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 13 Aug 2010 03:23:37 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Wide-Eyed About Blur by Vox</title>
		<link>http://silverbased.org/blur-entrance-pupil/comment-page-1/#comment-1071</link>
		<dc:creator>Vox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Aug 2010 03:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silverbased.org/?p=412#comment-1071</guid>
		<description>A friend emails:

&quot;If entrance pupil is what matters for blur, that&#039;s interesting and new to me. A quick compare of a couple lenses I have sitting around makes a startling point of this that may contradict what I have so far thought about DOF. For example, my 100mm f/2.8 for my Mamiya Press has an entrance pupil a bit smaller than the 135mm f/2.8 el cheapo M42.Does this mean that the Mamiya would have more depth of field at that aperture than the el cheapo? I always thought it was a complex interplay of distance to subject, distance from background, format size, lens length and aperture. Is it possible that lenses for smaller formats, in shorter focal lengths, just typically have a smaller entrance pupil, and therefore the aforementioned factors automatically come into play? Or is it really that simple, small entrance pupil = more depth of field?

Just mind blowing that my 6x9 Mamiya lens may have inherently less background blur than a $15 Ricoh M42 screwmount. &quot;

The real mental breakthrough for me was realizing that there&#039;s TWO separate things we&#039;re talking about. 

The one we&#039;ve always paid attention to is literally the depth of the IN-focus zone. This is what you learn from one of those online calculators like, 
http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html
And you&#039;re right that several factors play into to that. The one too often forgotten is that the tolerable blur diameter increases with larger image formats. That&#039;s the &quot;circle of confusion&quot; number, where something like 1/1500 of the image diagonal is conventional.

But in many cases, the quantity we actually care about is something different: It&#039;s the AMOUNT of blur in areas far OUTSIDE focus. That calculation is entirely different from the traditional DOF figures. This is when the entrance-pupil diameter really starts to matter.

With the two lenses you mentioned, the cheapie telephoto would need to be used at 3 times the distance of the Mamiya to give the same subject framing. Adjusting for that, it looks like the DOF at e.g. f/2.8 is about half as deep when using the Mamiya lens. However you may still find that the blurriness of the far background is greater with the 135mm. 

Practically speaking, that lens will also make it easier to maneuver to avoid some distraction in the background, since its angle of view is smaller.

The bigger the image format, the longer the focal lengths that go with it. So the entrance pupil to achieve the same f/ratio must also be larger. This is one reason why large format lenses are rarely faster than f/5.6, since otherwise they&#039;d need to be ginormous and even more expensive than they are already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A friend emails:</p>
<p>&#8220;If entrance pupil is what matters for blur, that&#8217;s interesting and new to me. A quick compare of a couple lenses I have sitting around makes a startling point of this that may contradict what I have so far thought about DOF. For example, my 100mm f/2.8 for my Mamiya Press has an entrance pupil a bit smaller than the 135mm f/2.8 el cheapo M42.Does this mean that the Mamiya would have more depth of field at that aperture than the el cheapo? I always thought it was a complex interplay of distance to subject, distance from background, format size, lens length and aperture. Is it possible that lenses for smaller formats, in shorter focal lengths, just typically have a smaller entrance pupil, and therefore the aforementioned factors automatically come into play? Or is it really that simple, small entrance pupil = more depth of field?</p>
<p>Just mind blowing that my 6&#215;9 Mamiya lens may have inherently less background blur than a $15 Ricoh M42 screwmount. &#8221;</p>
<p>The real mental breakthrough for me was realizing that there&#8217;s TWO separate things we&#8217;re talking about. </p>
<p>The one we&#8217;ve always paid attention to is literally the depth of the IN-focus zone. This is what you learn from one of those online calculators like,<br />
<a href="http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html</a><br />
And you&#8217;re right that several factors play into to that. The one too often forgotten is that the tolerable blur diameter increases with larger image formats. That&#8217;s the &#8220;circle of confusion&#8221; number, where something like 1/1500 of the image diagonal is conventional.</p>
<p>But in many cases, the quantity we actually care about is something different: It&#8217;s the AMOUNT of blur in areas far OUTSIDE focus. That calculation is entirely different from the traditional DOF figures. This is when the entrance-pupil diameter really starts to matter.</p>
<p>With the two lenses you mentioned, the cheapie telephoto would need to be used at 3 times the distance of the Mamiya to give the same subject framing. Adjusting for that, it looks like the DOF at e.g. f/2.8 is about half as deep when using the Mamiya lens. However you may still find that the blurriness of the far background is greater with the 135mm. </p>
<p>Practically speaking, that lens will also make it easier to maneuver to avoid some distraction in the background, since its angle of view is smaller.</p>
<p>The bigger the image format, the longer the focal lengths that go with it. So the entrance pupil to achieve the same f/ratio must also be larger. This is one reason why large format lenses are rarely faster than f/5.6, since otherwise they&#8217;d need to be ginormous and even more expensive than they are already.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Shallower Depth of Field? by Silverbased &#124; Wide-Eyed About Blur</title>
		<link>http://silverbased.org/shallowest-dof/comment-page-1/#comment-1068</link>
		<dc:creator>Silverbased &#124; Wide-Eyed About Blur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Aug 2010 00:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silverbased.org/shallowest-dof/#comment-1068</guid>
		<description>[...] mm f/2.8 lens, for their 645 medium-format system. And it only cost me $60 from KEH. As I&#8217;ve written before, medium format systems can give you nice background blur at quite an affordable [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] mm f/2.8 lens, for their 645 medium-format system. And it only cost me $60 from KEH. As I&#8217;ve written before, medium format systems can give you nice background blur at quite an affordable [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Bokeh: What it is and isn&#8217;t by Silverbased &#124; Wide-Eyed About Blur</title>
		<link>http://silverbased.org/bokeh-defined/comment-page-1/#comment-1067</link>
		<dc:creator>Silverbased &#124; Wide-Eyed About Blur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Aug 2010 00:02:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silverbased.org/?p=260#comment-1067</guid>
		<description>[...] here, by writing a detailed analysis (1.7 Mb PDF) regarding focus depth, background blur, and bokeh. It&#8217;s published in the Zeiss newsletter Camera Lens News No. 35. This document is a humbling [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] here, by writing a detailed analysis (1.7 Mb PDF) regarding focus depth, background blur, and bokeh. It&#8217;s published in the Zeiss newsletter Camera Lens News No. 35. This document is a humbling [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Kodachrome: Shoot It Now! by Vox</title>
		<link>http://silverbased.org/kodachrome-2010/comment-page-1/#comment-1047</link>
		<dc:creator>Vox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jul 2010 18:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silverbased.org/?p=357#comment-1047</guid>
		<description>A lot of folks around the internet have been linking to this Wichita Eagle article, &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kansas.com/2010/07/14/1403115/last-kodachrome-roll-processed.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Last Kodachrome Roll Processed in Parsons&lt;/a&gt;.&quot;

Just to clarify, what Dwayne&#039;s developed was a roll shot by photographer &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Steve McCurry&lt;/a&gt;. Working with National Geographic, McCurry had made special arrangements to receive the final roll to come off Kodak&#039;s Kodachrome production line.

There are plenty of other Kodachrome rolls still in circulation, and Dwayne&#039;s will continue to develop them &lt;a href=&quot;http://dwaynesphoto.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;through December 30th 2010&lt;/a&gt;. (I believe the date &quot;December 10th&quot; mentioned in the article is just a mistake.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of folks around the internet have been linking to this Wichita Eagle article, &#8220;<a href="http://www.kansas.com/2010/07/14/1403115/last-kodachrome-roll-processed.html" rel="nofollow">Last Kodachrome Roll Processed in Parsons</a>.&#8221;</p>
<p>Just to clarify, what Dwayne&#8217;s developed was a roll shot by photographer <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry" rel="nofollow">Steve McCurry</a>. Working with National Geographic, McCurry had made special arrangements to receive the final roll to come off Kodak&#8217;s Kodachrome production line.</p>
<p>There are plenty of other Kodachrome rolls still in circulation, and Dwayne&#8217;s will continue to develop them <a href="http://dwaynesphoto.com/" rel="nofollow">through December 30th 2010</a>. (I believe the date &#8220;December 10th&#8221; mentioned in the article is just a mistake.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Film Newbie: Loading &amp; Shooting 120 by On the Web: A Newbie&#8217;s Guide to Medium Format Film&#160;&#124;&#160;camerasandfilm.com</title>
		<link>http://silverbased.org/load-120-film/comment-page-1/#comment-1026</link>
		<dc:creator>On the Web: A Newbie&#8217;s Guide to Medium Format Film&#160;&#124;&#160;camerasandfilm.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 03:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silverbased.org/?p=370#comment-1026</guid>
		<description>[...] Read the entire post here (link). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Read the entire post here (link). [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on 120: The Survivor by Silverbased &#124; Film Newbie: Loading &#38; Shooting 120</title>
		<link>http://silverbased.org/120-history/comment-page-1/#comment-1022</link>
		<dc:creator>Silverbased &#124; Film Newbie: Loading &#38; Shooting 120</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 23:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silverbased.org/120-history/#comment-1022</guid>
		<description>[...] talking about shooting the 120 film size, often referred to as medium [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] talking about shooting the 120 film size, often referred to as medium [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Depth of Field: When Format Matters by Silverbased &#124; Film Newbie: Loading &#38; Shooting 120</title>
		<link>http://silverbased.org/dof-vs-format/comment-page-1/#comment-1021</link>
		<dc:creator>Silverbased &#124; Film Newbie: Loading &#38; Shooting 120</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 23:11:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silverbased.org/dof-vs-format/#comment-1021</guid>
		<description>[...] For those who want to dip a toe into shooting the real thing, there is much to recommend a basic Holga 120N camera. It&#8217;s cheap, widely available, and gives images with a distinctive dreamy flavor. And in general, any camera with the same large film format will give a noticeably different feeling from digital (something I&#8217;ve written about before). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] For those who want to dip a toe into shooting the real thing, there is much to recommend a basic Holga 120N camera. It&#8217;s cheap, widely available, and gives images with a distinctive dreamy flavor. And in general, any camera with the same large film format will give a noticeably different feeling from digital (something I&#8217;ve written about before). [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on DIY: Plastic Food Tub Flash Diffuser by Silverbased &#124; 101: Vintage Electronic Flash</title>
		<link>http://silverbased.org/tupperflash/comment-page-1/#comment-985</link>
		<dc:creator>Silverbased &#124; 101: Vintage Electronic Flash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 00:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silverbased.org/tupperflash/#comment-985</guid>
		<description>[...] you might need to open up an additional f/stop or so. If you put a diffuser over the flash (like my Tupperware flash project), or bounce the light off a wall, you&#8217;ll also lose a couple of f/stops of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] you might need to open up an additional f/stop or so. If you put a diffuser over the flash (like my Tupperware flash project), or bounce the light off a wall, you&#8217;ll also lose a couple of f/stops of [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on 120: The Survivor by Silverbased &#124; 120 Film: Some History</title>
		<link>http://silverbased.org/120-history/comment-page-1/#comment-960</link>
		<dc:creator>Silverbased &#124; 120 Film: Some History</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 20:12:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silverbased.org/120-history/#comment-960</guid>
		<description>[...] No. 2 Brownie (see a larger version from the source). As many know (and as I&#8217;ve written about before), Kodak launched an entirely new roll size for this camera, called 120—the same 120 film [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] No. 2 Brownie (see a larger version from the source). As many know (and as I&#8217;ve written about before), Kodak launched an entirely new roll size for this camera, called 120—the same 120 film [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Bokeh: What it is and isn&#8217;t by Silverbased &#124; Aspheric Lenses, And Why You Should Care</title>
		<link>http://silverbased.org/bokeh-defined/comment-page-1/#comment-950</link>
		<dc:creator>Silverbased &#124; Aspheric Lenses, And Why You Should Care</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://silverbased.org/?p=260#comment-950</guid>
		<description>[...] (We should note, however, that a bit of uncorrected spherical aberration can improve a lens&#8217;s bokeh.) Spherical aberration is particularly hard to cure at fast f/ratios, since the ray paths must bend [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (We should note, however, that a bit of uncorrected spherical aberration can improve a lens&#8217;s bokeh.) Spherical aberration is particularly hard to cure at fast f/ratios, since the ray paths must bend [...]</p>
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